tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37286253.post1803961391778460805..comments2024-03-09T11:08:34.910+02:00Comments on other things amanzi: hijackerBongihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12918640034313468627noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37286253.post-17950693716418944652007-12-27T13:24:00.000+02:002007-12-27T13:24:00.000+02:00yes laundress, it is controversial. you are right ...yes laundress, it is controversial. you are right in saying i don't agree with their behaviour. but i'm telling a story that is true that is supposed to make the reader think. the main gist of it has to do with the desensitized nature of doctors. i could also have spoken about how there is a very high turnover of casualty doctors because of burnout. seeing the dregs of humanity one can only take for so long.<BR/><BR/>i disagree with your reasons for not judging the man. he was a hijacker. in south africa that is almost synonymous with being a killer. in all probability this man was a killer. but that is not the point. i treat killers. it is a big part of my job. i do my job to the best of my ability even though and despite the fact that the patient before me is a killer. as i said in a previous comment, i treat them with the respect i would like, not the respect they give. you see to say we should treat him well because he may be innocent implies that the guilty we can treat badly. that, i think, is equally wrong.<BR/><BR/>your assumptions about prejudice based on him possibly being black i think is american where blacks are a minority group. here the blacks outnumber the whites about 10 to 1. to think that someone is a bad person because he is black would mean that i think of almost all my patients as bad. that night i probably saw only one or two whites but many many blacks. i could not possibly have been prejudiced against them all. also in this country the majority of cops are black, so you are making an assumption that the cop was white.<BR/><BR/>anyway, this illustrates how circumstances can change some people. i've said before and i'll probably say again, i think a sort of post traumatic counseling should be mandatory for people working up against the coal face, so to speak.Bongihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12918640034313468627noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37286253.post-61961819295274513512007-12-27T05:24:00.000+02:002007-12-27T05:24:00.000+02:00Jeepers bongi, You got me with this one. Your pos...Jeepers bongi, <BR/><BR/>You got me with this one. Your post has bothered me greatly in lots of directions. Not sure where to go with this...<BR/><BR/>I have been a victim too. So I do know about generalizing fear to anyone who resembles the one who harmed you.<BR/><BR/>Have also been close to some who have done terrible things they are now incarcerated for but also, like a lot of us, did good things that went unnoticed. <BR/><BR/>But all the ER staff know here, in your post, is a fragment of one side of the story. <BR/><BR/>No right to be making up all sorts of generalizations about the patient. No matter what they were "caught in the act" of... <BR/><BR/>There are probably nice, respectable sorts who fell off a ladder or whatever and ended up in your resus and have far blacker hearts and deeds and would be more deserving of the scorn of the healers.<BR/><BR/>So you say "South African" and carjacking and I am assuming the disparaged patient is a black guy, the one who is shot in the chest? Hmm. We all make assumptions and prejudices. But should you be forcefully articulating them in front of someone who is completely helpless? Nope. I think the doctor and nurse you describe were wrong to do so... obviously you do too. But yep, lots of muddiness here. <BR/><BR/>Great post, it hurts and I am going to be thinking about it for a while...<BR/>tlThe Laundresshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07698451766032897477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37286253.post-16063242943074773502007-12-24T19:11:00.000+02:002007-12-24T19:11:00.000+02:00I just discovered your blog (through Grand Rounds)...I just discovered your blog (through Grand Rounds) and I am glad I did.<BR/><BR/>Many years ago, as a Spanish-speaking social worker, I treated Central American refugees - some who were fleeing the death squads and some who were on the death squads. I came to believe that in my thoughts I can hold any dark, malevolent wishes. But in my behavior, I am there as helper, not judge. I think you said it well in your comment - I treat them with the respect I would like, not with the respect they would give me.Barbara Kivowitzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04069286366650175153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37286253.post-53565856472206307392007-12-23T19:08:00.000+02:002007-12-23T19:08:00.000+02:00roer, lees my pos, i made a difference. ek kan nie...roer, lees my pos, i made a difference. ek kan nie onthou waar dit is nie, maar ek is seker jy sal dit kan kry.<BR/><BR/>i did feel sorry for him and i did say something in that line to the sister. i agree. you can't play judge, jury and executioner. and i don't. but i have many stories about coming face to face with these people and it is different when you see them up close and lay your hands on them to try to help them and put them back on the streets to continue their chosen profession rather than read about them in a newspaper or reflect about the moment when you were a victim (i too have been a number of times as is typical of being south african). it is just different. i will personally never treat them differently but i do understand the desire to and as long as the guy is not being medically discriminated against i let it go.<BR/><BR/>greg, yes you're right. we put them back on the streets to continue the killing. that is the fact of it. it is an interesting thing to consider while you do your best for him. maybe i should post a few more stories of my encounters with these types.<BR/><BR/>i think my personal answer is to stick with what i know. i fix them. i make sure i treat them with the respect i would like, not the respect they would give me.Bongihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12918640034313468627noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37286253.post-50268839491805017852007-12-23T18:21:00.000+02:002007-12-23T18:21:00.000+02:00The flip side of what roer is saying, though, is t...The flip side of what roer is saying, though, is that, regardless of how pleasant, cooperative, and considerate these people might be, they have a bent sense of right and wrong, good and bad, and some kind of mental mismatch between what they do to others and what others do to them.<BR/><BR/>So after you treat them, get them back to good health, they go back out on the street where they're not necessarily any less likely to yank you out of your car and shoot you. They might even "feel badly about it" afterward, but they don't see much reason to learn from past behavior -- things happen.Greg Phttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18422487877167541900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37286253.post-18400023539800241452007-12-23T18:04:00.000+02:002007-12-23T18:04:00.000+02:00Call me crazy, but I would feel sorry for him and ...Call me crazy, but I would feel sorry for him and I most certainly would treat him with dignity. Lot's of South African's would frown on this, but I don't want to judge neither them (because they might have been victims of crime) or the perpetrator (and yes, I too have been a victim of crime in our country - twice - so I think I'm allowed an opinion). Nothing could justify the hi-jackers actions, but surely you realise when you become a nurse / doctor that situations like this would arise and surely it’s not ethical to treat him any different to any other patient. If you are going to treat this patient (who has not had his day in court I might add) like dirt, I don't see much difference between you and him (and of course I'm not referring to gentleman-superhero-doctor Bongi). That might be a little harsh but you know what I mean. Furthermore, I'm ashamed to say that I don't trust our Police. Combined with racial hatred, (and this is VERY possible and a reality in SA) for all we know, the off-duty Policeman was not entirely truthful. Then again he might have been. The point is whilst the patient is being treated, YOU DON’T KNOW the truth. All I'm saying is life is not black and white.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37286253.post-58204234362398118192007-12-22T19:59:00.000+02:002007-12-22T19:59:00.000+02:00greg, i'm somewhat different. i always asked. i ne...greg, i'm somewhat different. i always asked. i never believed them, but i always asked. if you believe them you would be surprised how dangerous selling bibles is.Bongihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12918640034313468627noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37286253.post-5226808881573665542007-12-22T18:21:00.000+02:002007-12-22T18:21:00.000+02:00Every once in a while I will see a prisoner in con...Every once in a while I will see a prisoner in consultation, wearing a bright orange jumpsuit, manacles and ankle chains. There is some small element of curiosity about what he or she did, but only small, so I don't bother to ask.<BR/><BR/>Just go about my job with the officer accompanying, undoing manacles or whatever as needed for the exam. Invariably, the prisoners are pleasant, cooperative, somewhat model patients.Greg Phttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18422487877167541900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37286253.post-34609508267765191792007-12-22T07:49:00.000+02:002007-12-22T07:49:00.000+02:00Sid, thanks for the comment. I was hoping there wo...Sid, thanks for the comment. I was hoping there would be input from the first world, because I think these attitudes have more to do with being in the profession than being South African.<BR/>Keep that post somewhere safe for later.<BR/>Now can i please stop Capitalizing?Bongihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12918640034313468627noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37286253.post-13880252419639580912007-12-22T00:52:00.000+02:002007-12-22T00:52:00.000+02:00i doubt its in any way unique to south africa, mea...i doubt its in any way unique to south africa, meaning that people who work in "resus" (does that make them monkeys?) necessarily have to develop thick skin. i wrote what surely would have been an inflammatory post about why er doc/bloggers seem so angry. since i'd already run out i didnt want that to be my last contribution to cybersurgery, so i didnt post it. <BR/><BR/>parts of some of our cities are nearly as dangerous as you describe. still it seems you put up with much more than most of us, within and without your chosen field. now, may i go back to capitalizing?Sid Schwabhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14182853083503404098noreply@blogger.com